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	<title>Comments on: Piracy as a Signal of Value? [Updated]</title>
	<atom:link href="http://billpetti.com/2009/08/22/piracy-as-a-signal-of-value/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://billpetti.com/2009/08/22/piracy-as-a-signal-of-value/</link>
	<description>Trying to separate the signal from the noise, one post at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: billpetti</title>
		<link>http://billpetti.com/2009/08/22/piracy-as-a-signal-of-value/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[billpetti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://billpetti.wordpress.com/?p=369#comment-36</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All valid points.  The practice certainly degrades the incentive to create and innovate in the long-run.  

I do think there is some useful information to derive from the data, just haven&#039;t worked it all out yet.  I think I am taking a more broad view of the term value than just market price and that is where we are disagreeing on its potential utility.

Maybe I&#039;ll convince you if I ever get around to publishing the next iteration ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All valid points.  The practice certainly degrades the incentive to create and innovate in the long-run.  </p>
<p>I do think there is some useful information to derive from the data, just haven&#8217;t worked it all out yet.  I think I am taking a more broad view of the term value than just market price and that is where we are disagreeing on its potential utility.</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;ll convince you if I ever get around to publishing the next iteration <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: crutkow</title>
		<link>http://billpetti.com/2009/08/22/piracy-as-a-signal-of-value/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crutkow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://billpetti.wordpress.com/?p=369#comment-35</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I just think it starts to approach navel-gazing.  Price is an incentive to labor, whether it be physical, mental and/or creative, and the real cost I think is in the exhaustion of the creative mind as a resource.  The busker on the street corner isn&#039;t going to play Journey for you all day unless you start putting some dollars in his hat.  There may be free loaders, there may be passersby who hate Journey and aren&#039;t consuming, but on some level the system works when enough appreciative listeners pony up and drop a nickel in the hat.  And I would argue its incumbent on him to do so.

What the pirate is doing is tricking the busker to play a little longer (putting wooden nickels in his hat or something, I dunno), but it has a limit.  While the price may be free-floating, (testing moment by moment the tolerance levels of the consumer and the producer for how much the music is worth and how much effort the musician is willing to expend to make it), a value exchange is still ocurring.  When the pirate is theiving it, that process is negated.  So, forget the artificial costs imposed by a government, the real cost is that eventually our busker will just starve on his feet or pack up his guitar and sell hamburgers.  Now extrapolate that out about a billion times, adding in layers of CD production costs, promotion costs, distribution costs, buckets of ecstasy, and whatever else passes as a staple for the music industry these days, and I think you have a workable fable for what online piracy is doing to the music industry as a whole.  It&#039;s just a matter of scale.

So, my point is, yes, the fact that the Black Eyed Peas are being pirated more than my beloved Inspiral Carpets indicates that BEP music would have some theoretically higher value, it doesn&#039;t begin to help determine what that value should mean price-wise because piracy makes price irrelevant.  And since we don&#039;t live in a barter economy, any other definition of value is just foo foo dust.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I just think it starts to approach navel-gazing.  Price is an incentive to labor, whether it be physical, mental and/or creative, and the real cost I think is in the exhaustion of the creative mind as a resource.  The busker on the street corner isn&#8217;t going to play Journey for you all day unless you start putting some dollars in his hat.  There may be free loaders, there may be passersby who hate Journey and aren&#8217;t consuming, but on some level the system works when enough appreciative listeners pony up and drop a nickel in the hat.  And I would argue its incumbent on him to do so.</p>
<p>What the pirate is doing is tricking the busker to play a little longer (putting wooden nickels in his hat or something, I dunno), but it has a limit.  While the price may be free-floating, (testing moment by moment the tolerance levels of the consumer and the producer for how much the music is worth and how much effort the musician is willing to expend to make it), a value exchange is still ocurring.  When the pirate is theiving it, that process is negated.  So, forget the artificial costs imposed by a government, the real cost is that eventually our busker will just starve on his feet or pack up his guitar and sell hamburgers.  Now extrapolate that out about a billion times, adding in layers of CD production costs, promotion costs, distribution costs, buckets of ecstasy, and whatever else passes as a staple for the music industry these days, and I think you have a workable fable for what online piracy is doing to the music industry as a whole.  It&#8217;s just a matter of scale.</p>
<p>So, my point is, yes, the fact that the Black Eyed Peas are being pirated more than my beloved Inspiral Carpets indicates that BEP music would have some theoretically higher value, it doesn&#8217;t begin to help determine what that value should mean price-wise because piracy makes price irrelevant.  And since we don&#8217;t live in a barter economy, any other definition of value is just foo foo dust.</p>
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		<title>By: billpetti</title>
		<link>http://billpetti.com/2009/08/22/piracy-as-a-signal-of-value/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[billpetti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://billpetti.wordpress.com/?p=369#comment-34</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think we are in fundamental agreement on this.  As I wrote, piracy destroys the price mechanism and all the dynamics that follow from it.  I think some conceptualize value divorced from price.  The problem of course is that doing so eliminates the mechanism of opportunity costs which truly forces people to chose between options, thereby revealing the degree that someone values something.

However, in the post I was toying with the idea that there is a stand-in for price with piracy, and that is the risk that pirates run.   It isn&#039;t an upfront cost, but rather one that participants take on since if they are caught they will have to pay some price (whether monetary, reputational, or some kind of incarceration).  But, for the reasons noted, I don&#039;t know if it would actually work.  

End of the day, piracy data could provide some insight into popularity of a product (particularly measures of trends, buzz, etc), but from a value standpoint the price mechanism is still superior.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we are in fundamental agreement on this.  As I wrote, piracy destroys the price mechanism and all the dynamics that follow from it.  I think some conceptualize value divorced from price.  The problem of course is that doing so eliminates the mechanism of opportunity costs which truly forces people to chose between options, thereby revealing the degree that someone values something.</p>
<p>However, in the post I was toying with the idea that there is a stand-in for price with piracy, and that is the risk that pirates run.   It isn&#8217;t an upfront cost, but rather one that participants take on since if they are caught they will have to pay some price (whether monetary, reputational, or some kind of incarceration).  But, for the reasons noted, I don&#8217;t know if it would actually work.  </p>
<p>End of the day, piracy data could provide some insight into popularity of a product (particularly measures of trends, buzz, etc), but from a value standpoint the price mechanism is still superior.</p>
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		<title>By: crutkow</title>
		<link>http://billpetti.com/2009/08/22/piracy-as-a-signal-of-value/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crutkow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://billpetti.wordpress.com/?p=369#comment-33</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s a difference between something being &quot;a&quot; signal of value, and being a useful signal of value.  Certainly piracy is a signal that something is desireable.  But it operates in a sphere wholly divorced from a market economy, or indeed even a planned economy.  On some level it is really anti-value-- it sucks all the value out of a room.  So I guess my comment boils down to-- &quot;who cares?&quot;  You can&#039;t use piracy data to extrapolate any meaningful price.  The pirates will just take and take and take until the content producer has nothing left to give.  As soon as you introduce any price, piracy is no longer piracy; the dynamic is irreparably altered.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a difference between something being &#8220;a&#8221; signal of value, and being a useful signal of value.  Certainly piracy is a signal that something is desireable.  But it operates in a sphere wholly divorced from a market economy, or indeed even a planned economy.  On some level it is really anti-value&#8211; it sucks all the value out of a room.  So I guess my comment boils down to&#8211; &#8220;who cares?&#8221;  You can&#8217;t use piracy data to extrapolate any meaningful price.  The pirates will just take and take and take until the content producer has nothing left to give.  As soon as you introduce any price, piracy is no longer piracy; the dynamic is irreparably altered.</p>
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